Note - This transcript is automatically generated and has not been checked for errors.

Welcome to the NextGen Work Culture podcast, where leaders learn to support working parents, because being a family friendly business isn't.

Kortney00:00:11 - 00:00:13

Just a nice to have anymore.

Kortney00:00:13 - 00:00:36

It's essential for businesses that want to stay competitive, and it is critical for the next generation and those who are raising them. I'm your host, Courtney Ross, and I am so glad that you're here. Welcome back to the Nextgen work culture. Today I'm here with Abby dawn, the founder and CEO of work and mother. Welcome, Abby.

Abbey Donnell00:00:36 - 00:00:38

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Kortney00:00:39 - 00:00:43

So, before we dive in, Abby, can you tell us just a little bit more about you and who you are.

Kortney00:00:43 - 00:00:44

And what you do?

Abbey Donnell00:00:45 - 00:01:00

Sure. I am from Houston, Texas, and I have two small children, a little boy who's five and just started kindergarten and a three year old daughter. And I am the founder and CEO of Working Motherhood. Yeah.

Kortney00:01:00 - 00:01:04

So what is work and mother? Tell us more about it.

Abbey Donnell00:01:04 - 00:01:56

Great question. Yes. Work and mother is a provider of fully equipped and managed lactation suites for commercial real estate or enterprise employers. So what that means is we provide, essentially the playbook. If a landlord or employer doesn't have a mother's room, we provide a playbook of best practices, user experience considerations, a straight up build book, if they need it, to create their spaces. And we can consult on various aspects of what goes in the spaces. But then when the spaces are ready, we come in with all of the hospital grade equipment, all of the supplies, and most important, the operating platform. So we fully manage these mother suites, everything from, you know, enrollments or signing of waivers, onboarding equipment, tutorials.

Abbey Donnell00:01:56 - 00:02:32

We have an app for booking and access, and it's anonymized, so preserving privacy. And then we provide a whole host of virtual support resources to go along with it. So a breastfeeding guide for the modern mom. So understanding the realities and scheduling issues and how to breastfeed, if you choose to breastfeed, whether that's exclusively pumping, supplementing, or breastfeeding only, and then access to virtual lactation consultants, return to work coaching, call meditation. So all of these things that go along with it that impact your return to work, we provide that as well.

Kortney00:02:32 - 00:02:51

That's really awesome. I didn't realize you offered all of the kind of virtual stuff to go with it. So when I work in mother, pod or not pod suite is, you know, when somebody decides to invest in that, they also get all of this virtual stuff that goes along with it for their employees. Yeah, that's awesome.

Abbey Donnell00:02:51 - 00:03:22

So we like to use the term click and mortar because virtual only we feel that, you know, virtual only doesn't go far enough when you're trying to solve a physical need that has equipment and, you know, your, your body involved, so. But, you know, but the room and equipment only takes you so far as well because there's so much complexity around it, emotionally, mentally, you know, navigating different parts of the breastfeeding journey, weaning journey, return to work journey, and so we provide the complete holistic solution.

Kortney00:03:23 - 00:03:41

Yeah, that's amazing. I know when I was breastfeeding, my son was born, like, two weeks before the pandemic rocked the world, and everyone hadn't really figured out how to zoom yet. So, like, virtual lactation consultants weren't really a thing. I mean, there might have been one or two if I had, like, searched hard enough, but, like, that wasn't the norm, you know?

Abbey Donnell00:03:41 - 00:03:41

Right.

Kortney00:03:41 - 00:04:25

You had to actually go somewhere. And, of course, nobody was really doing that at the time, and nobody was going to come into my house, you know, like, Covid just hit, we don't know what's going on. But I needed that, like, a virtual option would have been amazing. And luckily for me, I guess my aunt is a nICU nurse, so I was just, like, facetiming her and, like, track down your lactation consultant and have her look at my boob, like, what's going on? So, you know, I kind of sort of had access to that. But, like, actually having the on demand lactation consultant and, like, all of these virtual assistants to, like, help you figure out breastfeeding would be amazing because it. It is challenging.

Abbey Donnell00:04:25 - 00:05:22

It is. And I think people think of it as something that's natural and equates natural to being easy, and that's just not the case. And, like, you know, you think of, like, your pregnancy journey and how many touch points you have with doctors and how many, you know, all these different things around, equipment and whatever, and, like, maybe people take the course. A lot of times they're like, I don't need a breastfeeding course because, you know, how hard can it be? And then you get in it, and it's so challenging, and it. Yeah, the main reason it's so challenging is cause you're learning it, you know, at the same time as your baby, and you feel kind of alone in that journey. And so one of the things, when I was preparing to start this company, I actually went and got my certificate in lactation counseling because I wasn't a mom yet myself when I came up with the idea, I was actually pregnant with our first location when we launched it pregnant with my first. We launched our first location. But I was like, if I'm going to do this, I really want to understand it, you know, on a granular level.

Abbey Donnell00:05:22 - 00:05:40

And I went, so I had all this education up front, and then I still remember having the baby and being like, wait, wait, what? What am I supposed to do? How do I do? You know, you just, like, you're in this moment and you just. It's. It's. Whether it comes naturally or not, it's nice to have additional support resources there with you.

Kortney00:05:41 - 00:05:56

Yeah. And even if it's not your first kid, like. Cause every breastfeeding journey is different, too. I mean, my. I struggled so much with my son, and maybe that's because it was my first and I didn't know what's going on. I was an overproducer. I had mastitis. I had, like, all of the problems, so I expected to have all of that with my second kid.

Kortney00:05:56 - 00:06:04

And she just, like, got it. It was so much easier. I was like, oh, okay. It's not always, like, nearly impossible.

Abbey Donnell00:06:05 - 00:06:07

I feel like I'm.

Kortney00:06:07 - 00:06:12

If you're providing this, you know, for your employees, it's not like it's only going to be helpful for first time.

Abbey Donnell00:06:12 - 00:06:12

No.

Kortney00:06:12 - 00:06:14

Totally different with every kid.

Abbey Donnell00:06:14 - 00:06:38

That's right. My journeys were entirely different with my first and my second. And I wouldn't necessarily say one was harder than the other. It's just we had different obstacles or learning blocks along the way. And I actually used a lactation consultant myself. And I, when she came to my house, I remember thinking, I remember saying, like, I'm so embarrassed because I have a certificate in counseling, and I, like, I just. I need some help. And she goes, I have three kids.

Abbey Donnell00:06:38 - 00:06:53

I use someone with me for me, too. And she goes, it's just helpful to have someone else in your corner. She goes, even if it's going well, it's nice to have someone in your corner who's going to check it out and just say, all's great. So I found that very comforting.

Kortney00:06:53 - 00:06:55

A little bit of an outsider's perspective.

Abbey Donnell00:06:55 - 00:06:56

Yeah. Yeah.

Kortney00:06:56 - 00:07:01

To help you try to weed through it all. Yeah.

Abbey Donnell00:07:01 - 00:07:01

Yeah.

Kortney00:07:02 - 00:07:41

I feel like part of why it was a little bit, I guess, easier with me the second time is because of my, like, pumping situation was better, too. So that makes a huge difference. I mean, with my first, I actually, because of COVID I was home for a lot longer than probably I really would have been. But even when I did go back to work, I just didn't have the, like, schedule in place to pump as often as I needed to. I only had the, the one traditional pump. And then with my second kid, I was able to get the, you know, wearable pumps. I was able to pump more frequently, and I also just had a little bit more of a backbone and stood up to my boss a lot more. Um, so that helped.

Kortney00:07:41 - 00:07:58

But I feel like, you know, the availability of a pumping space and the support for pumping can make a huge difference in the journey too, because, like my daughter, my second was exclus exclusively breast milk because I had a much more successful pumping journey, whereas with my son, we had to supplement.

Abbey Donnell00:07:59 - 00:08:37

Nice. Yeah, we're seeing that, like, playing out in real time. So the stat is that over 80% of moms, new moms, initiate breastfeeding. And, you know, the AAP recommends exclusively breastfeeding for the first six months and supplementing after that. Well, of moms who return to work outside the home, only 10% are still breastfeeding at six months. And that is because work is, you know, the lack of proper spaces and resources once you return to work. Like, moms are just not set up to succeed there. Well, of moms who have returned to work with a working mother, 90% are still going at six months mark, and so.

Abbey Donnell00:08:37 - 00:08:59

And we have 50% success making it to 1212 months. And so amazing. I think it's like just such a Clear indicator of, like, if moms have the proper spaces and resources, they can succeed in both roles. But the majority of environments, like, you know, moms are returning to work in an environment that is not setting them up for success.

Kortney00:08:59 - 00:09:19

Yeah, yeah. Even if you have, you know, the availability in your schedule, your boss says, like, yeah, sure, you could go and, you know, do it at this time. And this time, if you don't have the space that's really set up for it. If you're like trying to pump in a clock closet or at your desk or something, it's challenging. And eventually it just gets so stressful that, you know, a lot of people just give up.

Kortney00:09:20 - 00:09:20

Right.

Abbey Donnell00:09:20 - 00:10:12

Well, and it's not even. So that's, that's exactly why I came up with a working mother. I, I didn't have kids yet myself, as I mentioned, but I knew I wanted to have them soon I'd be back at work and I was hearing all of these stories from my friends roving kids because lifetime and everyone around me having babies and they're being told to use conference rooms, closets, or like, they maybe had only a cubicle and so they're roaming the office looking for someone whose office, you know, they were at lunch or whatever, they could use their office or, like, they forgot a part and have to run home. In my office, open floorplan, glass wall, mostly male co workers, very supportive company culture. But, like, physically, I looked around and was like, I don't. I don't understand how. How I would do this. And one of the things, you know, as I started doing research for the company and talk, you know, focus groups and talking to a lot of people, looking at the data, there are a couple of trends that surface.

Abbey Donnell00:10:12 - 00:10:50

Like one, multipurpose wellness rooms moms are still getting locked in on because a lot of people have keys or access credentials or they don't always lock. They're being used as a catch all for anything requiring privacy. So they're hard to get into whatnot. Or let's say they do have it and it locks, but it feels vulnerable. Like your coworkers are on the other side of this very thin wall, this door. Sometimes they're knocking and talking to you through the door, whatever. If your body is tense, like, physically tense, you can't have proper milk production. The oxytocin release doesn't work.

Abbey Donnell00:10:50 - 00:11:30

And so when moms are trying to pump in these, like, makeshift environments and they're feeling very vulnerable, and then their supply starts to tank, and then there's an emotional component to that, and then it's, like, too hard because you're trying to make up for, you know, like, inadequate pump sessions, and it's this awful spiral, and then people stop. Well, of course they stop because that's, once again, they're not being set up for success. And that's why that was kind of why I was so adamant about starting work. And mother is like, there's a better way to do this that makes economic sense for both landlord and employer. That provides a much better solution for working moms.

Kortney00:11:30 - 00:11:39

Yeah, absolutely. So why did you decide to kind of tackle this, like, at the landlord level for the whole building instead of just by individual companies?

Abbey Donnell00:11:39 - 00:12:29

Yeah, well, we do have an offering, like a lighter offering for individual companies, so we do offer that, too. But I do like to think of that as almost supplemental because I think about it in a couple of ways. One, while I think it's wonderful that we have the pump act and that legislation has advanced on a federal level and various state levels, to me, this is a facilities issue. It is a bodily function. You are taking clothes off. It should be considered on the building level, just like bathrooms. And that way you are guaranteed to have adequate facilities, privacy and capacity. The other piece of that is if you solve for it only on the employer level, then you still aren't free to move about your day as a working mom in the world.

Abbey Donnell00:12:29 - 00:13:21

So if you need to go to a client site, if you need to go to a conference, if you need to, you know, go have lunch or take a meeting at a co working space or whatever, have you, you can't. Or you, or you, you're going to be pumping in a bathroom stall or, you know, trying to find a spot. And so by tackling it on a broader facilities level, commercial real estate on a, you know, a matter of scale, we're not only able to serve far more moms, but we're able to do it in a way that is high end and elevated, fully equipped, and really makes it a legitimate part of our everyday lives. It's not some temporary setup. Like, mom shouldn't have to be in a temporary setup. I'm like, I'm sorry. It should be a permanent consideration, like, and so that's what we've set out to do, right?

Kortney00:13:21 - 00:13:29

Yeah, I love that. It shouldn't be. I mean, every time somebody gets pregnant, you're like, scrambling to set up the lactation room again, you know?

Abbey Donnell00:13:30 - 00:13:30

Right?

Kortney00:13:30 - 00:13:55

Like, oh, no, Susie's having a kid in a few months. Let's figure out where she's going to breastfeed. Let's just have a permanent solution so that every mom, every pumping parent who's going to come through has somewhere that is designated to actually do this. And that's what it's meant for. Like, you wouldn't believe the restroom is made for going to the restroom. The lactation suite is made for lactation. You know, it doesn't Bodily function, like you said.

Abbey Donnell00:13:56 - 00:14:11

Exactly. You Wouldn't believe the number of calls we get from, like, an employer who's like, we have a mom coming back this week. And I'm like, you SUrely have seen the signs of this in advance. You had some warning, but all right, we got you. Yeah.

Kortney00:14:13 - 00:14:24

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That's part of something I kind of advocate for, for the employees. Like, make sure your employers know before you leave that you intend to press feed when you come back.

Abbey Donnell00:14:25 - 00:14:25

Right.

Kortney00:14:25 - 00:14:32

Because the pumpkin says they have to give you the time and the space to do it. Right. And it can't be a bathroom and blah, blah, blah. That's going to take a little bit of preparation, possibly.

Abbey Donnell00:14:33 - 00:14:34

Exactly. I know.

Kortney00:14:34 - 00:14:37

Walk in and say, okay, I've got my breast pump. Where do I go?

Abbey Donnell00:14:37 - 00:15:44

I know it is too bad, though, that it's put on mom's shoulders. And that's one of the reasons, once again, that, like, the nice thing about solving it on a building level in addition to the employer level is even if your employer isn't ready, you've got some. You've got a facility in place if it's in your building. And the other, like, sort of byproduct of it, which I love, because the way our suites are configured is that there are private rooms within the broader suite, and then there's sort of a cleaning, sanitizing locker area. So what's, what I love about it is you start to create these organic kind of support friendships within the suite because moms are kind of coming in to pump at their similar times every day. So they start to meet other moms. So in a multi tenant situation, they're starting to meet other moms at other companies within the building. And there's none of the sort of nervousness of opening up, because what we heard in a lot of the research was, like, moms feel very vulnerable during that return to work time because, you know, they've just been out and they want to prove their back, you know, 110%.

Abbey Donnell00:15:44 - 00:16:08

So they don't necessarily want to confide in a coworker on their hard days, but when they're in a room that is full of other working moms going through the exact same journey as them, it's like, you know, it's a really beautiful thing to watch. I've witnessed it firsthand of them, like, what did you do for the four month sleep regression? I'm dying here. Like, you know, I was an oversquire. I was an underspire. How, you know, what do you use for this? And it's just a really beautiful thing.

Kortney00:16:09 - 00:16:26

Yeah, that's something I wouldn't have thought about that. Just kind of connection with other moms who are literally, like, in the same phase of life as you. A lot of them are probably exactly, like, almost the same age kids. So, I mean, you would just have these, like, instant mom friends just from walking in the suite at the same time every day.

Abbey Donnell00:16:27 - 00:16:31

One of those, like, strong, in the. In the trenches bonds that forms instantly.

Kortney00:16:32 - 00:16:50

Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned this before that the suites have everything you would need, you know, the hospital grade equipment, and I believe you have, like, a vending machine for supplies and stuff. So why did you make that decision to include the pump stuff there rather than just making mom have to bring everything?

Abbey Donnell00:16:51 - 00:17:32

Oh, man. The lugging of the stuff and all of the pieces, the logistics, um, it's such a burden, and it's. It's, yeah, time consuming. And then you're lugging that giant punk bag across the office. So we really want to simplify it. So every private room within the suite has a hospital grade pump, milk storage bags, lanolin breast pads, and sanitizing wipes. And then, as I mentioned, there's like, a shared kitchen area within the suite itself that has cleaning and sanitizing supplies, refrigeration, ice and storage. So everything you need to be able to pump is on site.

Abbey Donnell00:17:32 - 00:17:58

The only thing that's not included for free on site is the attachment kit because that's the one piece that touches your body and your milk. And everyone is responsible for their own. But we do sell them in the vending machine, so they're right there. So you're never in a bind. You can always pump if you need to. And we have lockers within the suite. So some moms do choose to bring a pump from home if they have one in particular they love. And they either leave it in the locker or they leave, you know, some of their stuff in their locker and can go.

Abbey Donnell00:17:58 - 00:18:19

Others use the, we use the medulla symphonies. Other, you know, prefer that. And they just buy their attachment kit, keep that in the locker, and they come to work with nothing and they leave with their, you know, cooler bag of milk. So it, like, truly frees them up to relieve a logistical burden that weighs heavily on our shoulders when we're first pumping.

Kortney00:18:20 - 00:18:43

Yeah, the logistics of it are crazy. With my first, I tried to lug everything home every night and wash it at home, but then you have to remember all of the parts. And then if you make it to work the next day without a part, like, you're just out of luck or you gotta race back home to figure it out. Or you're, like, in the bathroom trying to express milk manually into the toilet or something, like, because the milk has to come out or bad things happen.

Abbey Donnell00:18:43 - 00:18:46

I know. So I think that's a logistical stand.

Kortney00:18:47 - 00:19:25

Yes. Yeah. Like, you can't just go all day without pumping just because you decided you don't want to pump today. Like, it doesn't work that way. Your body has to release the milk or you get literally sick. And I experienced that way too many times with my son. So then I kind of got smart the second time around and had, like, a backup pump that I left at school because I was a teacher at the time that I left there to make sure, like, I'm never going to make it to work without a part, because that's like the worst feeling in the world is showing up and, oh, I forgot that flange or the bottle to pump the milk into or whatever, you know, part is still sitting in the drying rack on the kitchen counter.

Abbey Donnell00:19:25 - 00:19:33

Been there. Yeah. It's brutal. Yeah. So no matter what, you're never in a bind if there's a working weather suite, because everything is on site.

Kortney00:19:33 - 00:19:52

Yeah. And you don't have to lug everything around in front of your coworkers. I think that's pretty cool, too. Like, it doesn't. It's not super obvious. Like, hey, I'm going to pump milk now if you don't want it to be, I know. You're just kind of walking out to go do your thing, and it's not a conversation starter all the way through the office.

Abbey Donnell00:19:52 - 00:20:39

Right. And that's, you know, one of the things we talk about here is, like, there's nothing to be shameful about in pumping or lugging all that stuff, but at the same time, you don't always want to be on display for it. And what I love about having a permanent suite within the building that's treated like any other amenities. So, like, on the wall of the building, it's like, this way for the gym, this way for conference, this way for the mother suite. By doing that, you've legitimized it as a permanent need, as a permanent, like, normal thing that happens for many working moms without having to put it on a single mom's shoulders of being the one, like, on display or pumping. So it is nice that you can just come to work with nothing. You have enough to worry about juggling two jobs. You don't need to juggle.

Abbey Donnell00:20:39 - 00:20:40

Juggle a third.

Kortney00:20:41 - 00:20:50

Exactly. And breastfeeding is like a full time job. If you look at, like, how many minutes a year you actually put into it, it's. It's a lot. It's a lot of time.

Abbey Donnell00:20:50 - 00:21:11

And because everything's on site and everything's set up and ready to go, it's. Even though you, you know, you're walking from your desk to the suite, you're actually, most of our moms are saving quite a bit of time because there's no assembling of parts in the morning. There's no lugging it, there's no, you know, unpacking that pump bag and repacking it up or anything like that. It's all ready to go.

Kortney00:21:11 - 00:21:30

Yeah. And everything is just there in, like, one room. So it's not like you're having to go pump in the closet and then walk across the office to the, you know, kitchen to wash your parts and then go back to somewhere else to put it in a, you know, refrigerator or get some ice. You know, it's like that actually designed for this function. So everything you need is there. Right.

Abbey Donnell00:21:31 - 00:21:56

And that walk to the break room where you moms are having to wash their parts in, like, the community break room in their office, that is actually where the majority of harassment cases stem from. It's not the room itself within the company. It's when the room, when they have to, like, carry pumps and wash them in front of people or put, put milk in the, like, company break room fridge that the kind of harassment comments and, you know, some of those lawsuits tend to spur.

Kortney00:21:56 - 00:22:02

Yeah, I had thought about that. So it's like, it's good for businesses to make this sort of investment.

Abbey Donnell00:22:03 - 00:22:04

Yeah.

Kortney00:22:04 - 00:22:09

Not only going to help retain employees, but also going to keep you out of court.

Abbey Donnell00:22:10 - 00:22:22

Exactly. It's like an insurance policy. No, it is fun to be doing something that we're so passionate about from supporting moms, but that actually is a truly positive business decision for employers.

Kortney00:22:22 - 00:22:35

Yeah. I mean, there's lots of research and reports out there about it now about how it really, truly is, like a good business decision. It's not just the right thing to do, it's not just the law, but, like, it actually saves you money in the long run as a business.

Abbey Donnell00:22:35 - 00:22:36

Yep.

Kortney00:22:36 - 00:22:41

Yeah. Well, Abby, is there anything else you wanted to mention or talk about before we go today?

Abbey Donnell00:22:41 - 00:23:08

Well, thank you so much again for having me. It's been a pleasure talking with you. I would just encourage anyone out there listening to let their companies know that this is an option and or to let any of their expecting moms friends know that whether or not there is a working mother in your suite, there's plenty of resources on our hub, which you can find at Hub dot working mother.com. so our breastfeeding guide, our support resources, all of that is there to support.

Kortney00:23:09 - 00:23:09

Absolutely.

Kortney00:23:09 - 00:23:12

And I'll make sure to put links in the show notes as well.

Kortney00:23:12 - 00:23:17

Abby, thank you so much for coming on to chat about breastfeeding and lactation suites with me today.

Abbey Donnell00:23:17 - 00:23:19

Thanks again. Appreciate it.

Kortney00:23:22 - 00:23:45