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Welcome to the NextGen Work Culture podcast, where leaders learn to support working parents. Because being a family friendly business isn't just a nice to have anymore. It's essential for businesses that want to stay competitive, and it is critical for the next generation and those who are raising them. I'm your host, Kortney Ross, and I am so glad that you're here. Hello and welcome back to the NextGen work culture. Today I am here with Sascha Meyer of Mamava, and I am super excited to talk to her about breastfeeding support and their really cool mama ma pods. So, Sascha, thank you for being here. Kortney, thank you for having me. So, for people who may not know. You, could you give us just a. Little bit about who you are and what you do? Great. Yeah. I am the co founder, and now I am the chief experience officer of mama law. And most people know about our lactation pods because they've seen us in airports and they are the beautiful kind of curved. Often they have really fun graphics on them. Spaces specifically designed for parents to use, to primarily use a breast pump or to breastfeed in privacy if they choosE. We are based in BUrlington, Vermont. We basically created the category, and we also have a manufacturing facility in VeRMONt, about 2 hours south of BUrlington. So we are a business that is changing culture around breastfeeding, but also we're a manufacturing business, which is a great point of pride for me. Yeah, that is so awesome. So I am guessing that this started from a Personal Pain point. I find that most of these organizations and companies like yours have started with a mom who had a struggle. So tell us that Origin story. Why did you decide to design a lactation pod when that didn't even exist? Yeah. So it absolutely came from my personal experience and then observation. I work for a design studio here in Burlington, and most of our clients were not in Vermont. And Vermont is not an easy place to get to. So we spent a lot of time on planes getting back and forth. And I loved my job. I had a supportive employer. I also knew the importance of breastfeeding and that kind of head start that it can give for the health of your child, but also more so even for maternal health. Actually, the implications for breastfeeding and maternal health are. Have a stronger rationale than even for the child. So wanted to do that. When I went back to work, I constantly found myself, you know, expressing milk in substandard locations, mostly, you know, bathroom. It's like a, you have to attach yourself to this mechanical apparatus you're setting up, you know, chargers or plugging something in, and you have bottles and flanges and you're half naked. And so it was very demoralizing. I was able to, you know, continue on because I did have the support of my husband and my colleague. ColleaGues, but it was not eaSy. And as I grew away from that breastfeeding phase, continue to see the problem surface with my younger colleagues. My sister had kids ten years after I did, and SHe was still dealing with the same, you know, inequities around this issue. And coming from a design world, we believed that we could change in culture and solve real world problems through human centered design. So we set our minds to solving that and came up with a, you know, it's a long story how we actually got to where we got our first unit into our local airport, but it came from that personal challenge and a lot of other folks who believed in solving it and had experienced it themselves or were partners of breastfeeding women. So that's where it came from. Yeah. So as you were designing the pods, I meaN, I've SEen several of them out in the wild, and THEy're. They really are beautiful. So as designing them, I wonder, like, how much thought and strategy really went into how they looked on the outside. As much as, you know, what you're providing for the mom on the inside. It was really important to us to make it a beautiful design object that started a conversation. So we didn't want for THem to be misconstrued as a place to hide breastfeeding. It was really about celebrating it and offering a. A space that accommodated it and helped you actually meet your breastfeeding goals versus, like, hiding something away. So the gesture of the design and, like, the curved walls that you've. Maybe you've read some of the design literature around how curves and circular things give you joy. So that was really deliberate. They also create more of an expansive space when you are in a curved, walled space. But it was similar with our logo. So we came up with a logo that we call the happy breasts logo. It's like a smiley face that also looks like breasts. And it was really about, you know, being deliberate about what it was, that it didn't look like anything else. So, to be honest with you, in some of our prototyping, we had some ideas that looked a lot like a porta potty, and we definitely didn't want to make that connection. So it was important that it stood out, didn't look like something else, and communicated kind of this bodacious, joyous idea around the act, because I think so many parents feel like, particularly when they go back to work, breastfeeding or humping is such a drag. So we wanted to, like, reposition it again to be about, like, a celebration of this time in your life. That is wonderful. And I love hearing how purposeful that was because, like I said, I've seen many of them and they really are beautiful, but when you see them, it's also like, whoa, what is that? You know, if you're not SOmeBodY who has actually used them or knows what they are. So it makes you think about it and, you know, wonder and maybe become a little bit more informed of breastfeeding and why it is difficult for the mom when she's traveling or in all these different locations. I've also noticed that they seem to be sort of branded for the location where they are. Like, I recently went back to my alma mater, my college, for an alumni event, and I was a music major, so I was in the music building to do an alumni band, and they have a mamava pod up on the second story, or, you know, right outside of the balcony area. And I was so excited to find a mama vapod with my alumni, you know, my alma mater's mascot on it. What school was it? Austin P in Tennessee. Oh, nice. Our mascot is. The mascot is a governor, which is not actually a very beautiful picture. So actually, I took a picture of me with the pod, was like, so excited, posted it on social. So then someone commented like, why is there this picture of a big, ugly guy on a lactation pod? I'm like, well, you would understand if you went to college there. Oh, you have to totally send that. So when we can we share this out? That will be awesome. Yeah, yeah. Corny picture of me. Like, really excited to find it because, of course, that wasn't there when I was going to school there ten years ago. Yeah. So, you know, this is not really. This is not necessarily a business podcast, but, I mean, it is. So part of that has to do with where we came from in the design world. One of our anchor accounts was Burton snowboards. So we're very familiar with having a canvas that you could create graphics on and refresh year over year. And the original strategy, perhaps, to get these units placed was about using it as kind of out of Home advertising. So guess what, airport. You don't have to lay any money out for this. We're going to get 7th generation to wrap this pod, and that way their brand, which very much aligns with our mission, will be in the world, and the problem is solved as far as of the facility. In the end, that became a little bit too cumbersome and it changed more to just using the pods as a wonderful canvas for the academic institution or the sports team or a healthcare facility, but that was part of it too. Is that again, you're not hiding away this thing, you're actually celebrating it. And these early sponsors or the facilities that put them in get to have THeir messaging on it to show THeir affiliation with support for breastfeeding. Yeah, I think that's wonderful. Another one I, I saw recently was at an aquarium. It was so beautiful with all of the fish and stuff on it. Yeah, I just, I love how beautiful they are on the outside. But I do wonder, what do they look like on the inside? What is. What is making them functional? Sure. So, and I think that's the key big differentiator between us and like a room that maybe somebody hasn't considered all these things. So. And they have evolved a little bit. So they really designed more like a kitchen than anything else. Because you are dealing with bodily fluids, you are dealing often with intense facilities in terms of use. Like an airport is high traffic and high impact. Right. You're wear, you might be willing a piece of luggage, you might have a toddler with you. So the number one thing that has driven our interior design is really cleanliness and being able to make sure that it is easy to take care of for the facility, facility that manages that, and for the mom who might be kind of cleaning up after herself. So the interiors have benches, they have a full down table to place a pump. They have the appropriately placed location for plugging in a pump. In outlets. They have a mirror, they have coat hooks, they have a charger. So you can, you know, you're often, you are in a humping or breastfeeding situation for 20 to 30 minutes. You might be wanting to charge your phone at that same time or even use your phone. And you access our pods through our, or most of our pods through our mobile app. So you can both search to find their locations or find other lactation spaces that are public that are also on our app. And then when you get to the pod, you use the app to actually open the door and that just creates a little bit of friction and management for the space. So, you know, it's not being used just by anybody who can just run in there and charge their phone. Obviously, we don't police who downloads the app. We do not charge for that. But you have to be kind of a bad actor to deliberately download an app. Not be a breastfeeding parent and enter the space. So we don't find, actually that there is any or very much abuse on those spaces. Then our newest units evolved a little bit because we originally really thought of them as high traffic location solves, like convention centers and airports and stadiums. But what has materialized is that they've been needed to place everywhere moms go or work, which is everywhere. And so now the newest units actually have a cushioned seat, still easy to clean. It's not fabric. It's an easily wiped down surface. But it's a cushioned seat because she may be going in there for her job three times a day to pump. So that has evolved a little bit. Yeah, that's good to know. I was at a conference talking about the pump act, just kind of giving some awareness to HR people, and we were talking about setting up a lactation space. And they were in the aerospace industry, so they were at a large campus, and she mentioned that it was very difficult to try to have a lactation space in every building. I was like, you should look at the mama Bob pod. Thank you. That's awesome. I pulled them up, and she's like, oh, wow. This is exactly the kind of thing that we need is something that we could just place, you know, in a hallway or something without having to give up a whole room. But we need more than one laptation space on our campus. We need, yeah, and you can migrate them because they actually have a system where you crank up the footers and they have casters. So if you have threshold and the ability to just roll things around, you can do that, or you can disassemble and put them back up. They're pretty light, but they do provide that flexibility. And we have used that, especially in manufacturing, where you want to actually bring or warehousing, bring a facility closer to the user versus. Okay, great. They're taking a break, and now they're walking half a mile to get to a place where they can actually do this. Yeah, I could see where that would be really helpful. If you have an employee in building a that's pumping this year, but then in building Fe on the other side of campus next year, you could move it a little closer to her. That would be really nice. Absolutely. We see that all the time. I love that YoU also said that it's an appropriately placed OUtLet, because a lot of times when you're trying to pump in spaces that aren't designed for pumping, that is a problem. I know I've had to stretch way across the room or drag a chair closer to a wall and then your table or whatever is 6ft from you. It's a real problem. Yeah. Yeah. That is exactly the kind of thing that we've thought about. And it is. It's different and it is a little. It was challenging to think about solving for both a breastfeeding. We might want dimmer lights and different kind of a setup versus pumping. But I think we've struck a good balance there and we, you know, we've learned over the years what parents are looking for. Yeah. Also saw a post from you guys recently that you have like pop up pod. So it's not the gIant, you know, kind of harder to move pods, but Like, I think it was inflatable. Yeah, they're fun little inflatables. They're almost like a bouncy house in that you have to keep them plugged in so that you kind of like run a soft fan. And we do those for events so we don't sell them. But it's a way to get our mission extended to places that can't figure out a room. Sometimes they're outside under a tent. Right. Because it's still not really environmentally controlled. We want it to be shaded. And the way these are designed, they have kind of an open top. I love them. I think that those are very joyous objects as well. They're like this. They're kind of like an igloo. Those give me great joy to see those in the field and sort of an easy solve. Right. They pack into like a crate, a pretty small crate and then they can be go, they inflate in one and a half minutes. So. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. So I'm imagining for like races or events like that or conferences and things where maybe the lactation support isn't already in place in the building or is it outdoor event? Yeah, I imagine that's really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. So I mentioned the pump app. I wonder what are your kind of thoughts on that new legislation and did you have any advocacy from mama Bob when that was sort of coming through or. I'm sure that you guys have a bit of a hand in some advocacy for breastfeeding. Absolutely. Like it's been a very big part of what has manifested with Mama Bob. So my kids are 20 and 18 and it wasn't until the flsa AfForDable Care act changes came about that this idea for the Business Case REALLY TiCKed over to like, okay, now people have to be in compLiance. There's a business to be had here. So this policy has always been our brand. And like we say, like, good policy is actually good for business, and it gets people back to work and it gets, you know, more people meeting their breastfeeding goals. And it helped Mamaba actually establish ourselves. So we definitely have been in the advocacy zone, going to conferences, talking locally with our senators who are, we're very close, not a small state. We are literally on first name basis with Senator Welch and Senator Sanders. I actually used to work for Bernie Sanders, my first job out of college, so that's helpful. And the Pump act was amazing because it closed the gap on some of those work categories, as you likely know. So the original fair labor standards under the ACA protected those hourly employees, and it mandated break time in a place other than a restroom. But there was all sorts of employees in the category of exempt, like teachers and medical professionals. I think about 9 million people kind of fit into that category that now are covered in the pump act. And the pump act puts some teeth into the actual compliance so you can, you know, bring action against an employer who does not solve the problem within seven days. So we are seeing, and I don't love to see the last action suits come up because of it. For employers who have not created the proper accommodations, we're here to help with that, and in a really easy way. It's like, it's really, I think, an easy solve that can help your employees help in this era of low unemployment, help in terms of getting people like your customers into spaces, if you have lactation, accommodation, it signals something about your values as a company. Yeah, absolutely. That's, and I was a teacher for about ten years. So when I was breastfeeding, I was a teacher. And I remember sitting at my desk and googling after a disagreement over my pumping time with my manager and, like, searching what laws protect me to breastfeed as a teacher in Tennessee. And there wasn't one because, like you've mentioned, I was one of those exempt employees. They didn't have to allow me the time. So, yeah, it's really great that the compact now provides that protection for pretty much everyone, pretty much very few people that might not be able to claim, you know, that their player has to provide those accommodations. And like you said, mom, of all the pretty simple fall for it, right? Something a business is struggling with. Can't find the space or doesn't know how to set it up or whatever, you know, reach out to Amavon. I'm sure you could hook them up. Yeah, and we have. Although, as you say, it's less relevant. Now, we've always been really front footed about having that legislation and your rights and laws on our website. So that's both a resource for employers or facilities and for the parent who might be needing to advocate for themselves. And we found that, like a lot of our customers, you know, it starts with a squeaky wheel. It starts with a parent or a lactivist who says, oh, we should be doing either like, you need to solve this problem for me, or they're advocating for somebody else. And that actually tends to not be that gendered. Right. We have a lot of like papa vas, as we say, or fairy pod fathers who have, you know, are a grandparent or a partner to somebody who's breastfeeding and really believe in it and have brought the solution to their businesses and their facilities. Yeah, that's great, because oftentimes the breastfeeding individual themselves doesn't have the energy to advocate for themselves. Yeah, we always take someone else stepping up and having, yeah. So we have the mobile app that allows moms or parents to find pods and we see that there are a lot of dads or partners on it. Right. Because they're like the wingman to the travel situation and they are supporting and managing. So the breastfeeding mom can just do that part of it. So it will get comments and I'll be like, oh, this is a dad. Oh, that's cool. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's awesome. And you mentioned, for the businesses who are purchasing a mama ba pot or even just having a nice lactation room, it's not just about like complying with the law because of course, that's the bare minimum. You really have to do that. But it also sends a message and helps promote a really nice culture. Absolutely. And it's just another form. Yeah. There's so much conversation around infrastructure, right. In our world today. Like, we need to invest in infrastructure. I'm like, well, lactation and lactation policies and support is infrastructure. And you can't get somebody to the job if they are dealing with, you know, a part of their life that isn't being supported at that job or they don't have childcare or they don't have, you know, paid leave to establish, you know, breastfeeding. So that is, you know, infrastructure should be more broadly conceived in terms of care infrastructure as well. Yes, absolutely. We consider, you know, transportation infrastructure. Somebody can't get to work if they don't have a way to get there. Well, they also can't come to work. They don't have somebody to wash their kids or if they don't have a way to continue feeding their kids. Totally, exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Should be considered infrastructure. So you are now the chief experience officer, and I know part of that goes, you know, you are helping build a nice culture at your organization, but I wonder what your thoughts are. How can a company promote a more family friendly work culture? Oh, great question. Well, you know, flexibility is that number one thing. Actually, maybe it's the number two thing. Really good benefits in this country especially, is number one. So security with healthcare, good compensation, including time offs, obviously, and all of the kind of support that is needed. And then the flexibility factor is key. And that's one of the things that's interesting about our business, is that we do, as I said, we have a facility that manufactures our pods, which is really driven on a manufacturing schedule. You have to be in that space. You have to be there to do that. And, and then we obviously have more of a office culture. We have some people that are truly remote, remote across the country, and then folks that are based in Burlington, Vermont. So putting those tools in place that we have all been using, like we are an active slack company, right? Yeah. The slack is that water cooler. We have our schedule now is to be two days together in the office and then three days kind of wherever you want to be. And that seems like it's really working for us again. It's, how do you keep that balance for our folks at the factory? So for them, generally, they can work within usually like a four day work week that we try to put their hours in and work early and late and have just because it's a smaller team at the factory can kind of navigate that, how we design that work experience. But everything else in the company is like, if you're an hourly wage employee, you have the same package as the salaried employees, meaning same vacations. We close down the factory between, like, for instance, Christmas and New Year's. We have obviously all the same benefits we give all of our employees, whether they're hourly or salary and equity stakeholders. So things like that just have been fun to figure out, given the two very different sides of the business. But I would say, to answer your question, flexibility, how do you manifest that with these different kind of workplaces? And, you know, freedom and responsibility. Right? So it's like, people understand the work that they need to get done, and we give them the freedom to figure out how, what works best for actually getting done. Right. And that freedom comes with a level of trust. Right. You're trusting they're going to get their work done exactly when it is best and how it is the best for them. Yeah, I would have to say, like, in this era of more flexibility, it puts the burden on managers. You have to have really good managers because you are, you know, training people up and keeping them engaged and making sure they're hitting their obligations and KPI's. So that is, I think a big shift in work culture is just the need for those managers to be working. I think it's a harder job than it used to be. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Sasha, those were a great conversation. Thank you so much for coming on today to talk about breastfeeding and culture and the beautiful mama vaupod. Thank you for having me. And if anybody wants to learn more about Mama Bob, where can they go? Websites at bestplace, malaba.com, mamava.com. and I'm kind of partial to Instagram, so it's Mamaba Vt. That's kind of like my favorite social platform. Right? Great. Well, I'll make sure we put some links in the show notes as well. And thank you again for being here. If you enjoyed this episode, I know youll love the future ready work culture framework. Head over to courtneyross.com framework to download your copy and start building a family friendly, future ready workplace today. Dont forget to subscribe to the nextgen work culture so you never miss an episode. Id love it if youd also take a moment to leave a review. Until next time, take care. | 00:00:03.160 - 00:26:41.244