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Welcome to the NextGen Work Culture podcast, where leaders learn to support working parents, because being a family friendly business isn't just a nice to have anymore. It's essential for businesses that want to stay competitive, and it is critical for the next generation and those who are raising them. I'm your host, Kortney Ross, and I am so glad that you're here. Welcome back to the NextGen Work Culture podcast. Today I'm talking with Matt Gjertsen. Matt, welcome.

Matt00:00:35 - 00:00:38

Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here.

Kortney00:00:38 - 00:00:43

Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you. So first, could you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do?

Matt00:00:44 - 00:01:18

Yeah, totally. I am the founder of a company called Better Everyday Studios, where we help, like, to say, we help great engineers become great managers. Really? That kind of applies to every employee. We've really focused in on that. That new manager transition piece and helping people make, make that transition. My background in a past life, I was a instructor pilot in the US Air Force for about a decade, and then I led the training development team at SpaceX for about four, four and a half years. So, spent a lot of time around engineers, working with engineers, and so that's kind of where. Where we ended up today.

Kortney00:01:19 - 00:01:24

Yeah. Cool. And I'm guessing that's why we've got a spaceship blasting off behind you in the background.

Matt00:01:24 - 00:01:33

Yes, exactly. Yeah, I'm a huge space nut, so I got the space thing over here. I got a little plane model over in the corner, so.

Kortney00:01:34 - 00:01:57

Yeah, yeah, no, I love it. That's great. So you help new managers out and becoming. Cause I know a lot of times somebody is promoted because they're a really good individual contributor, and then they have no idea what they're doing as a leader. Right. So we're kind of helping them get their footing and become a good leader as well. So when somebody first takes over a new team, what are the kinds of things they should really be, like, thinking about?

Matt00:01:58 - 00:04:05

Yeah, I mean, I think especially for. For your audience and your. And your topics. You know, the biggest thing that I say is, when you become a new manager, the shift is it goes from being all about you to being nothing about you. Right. It's not about you anymore. When you're an individual contributor, the focus is how do you produce the most? How do you get the most work done? And as soon as you're a manager, it's how do you get a group of people to get the most done? How do you get your team to get the most done? And I think it's historically or just. I don't know, over time, I feel like we've spent a lot of time talking about, like, the productivity aspect of that. Is everybody working efficiently? Is everybody doing the right thing? But especially since COVID there's been a big shift in really focusing on the individuals and the well being. And it's. I'm sure it's. That's always been there from. From a leadership perspective, but I think it's a big focus today of really. And there's any. But, you know, you can read Amy Edmondson's work on psychological safety, and there's just so much work out there that if you want to create a high performing team, it's about creating, having trust and interconnectedness amongst that team. And that, you know, any trusting relationship means you got to get to know people. You got to understand people, where they're at, where they're coming from. And I think that's one of the challenges that a lot of high performers, you know, quote unquote high performers have when they get promoted is at least. At least in my background. You know, I'm coming from a very, you know, tech kind of startup world background where a lot of those high performers getting promoted really quickly are single or without kids or, you know, like, they're. They're moving forward quickly because they've made their whole life work, and there's a lot of understanding that needs to happen of that's not everybody on your team. You know, people have families, people have lives. That's a good thing. And if you don't understand that, if you don't take the time to try to understand that and shift some of your ways of thinking, you're just gonna, like, try to steamroll people, and it's not gonna. Not gonna turn out very well.

Kortney00:04:05 - 00:04:26

Yeah. Yeah. I think that maybe the steamrolling worked a little better in the past or just kind of micromanaging the heck out of people or, like, coming down with an iron fist, maybe that was the management style of decades ago, but it doesn't necessarily work anymore. I don't know that it ever really worked. Yeah. You know, people are expecting different now.

Matt00:04:27 - 00:06:04

Yeah. I mean, you go back to. I mean, there's so much. You know, you go back to the fifties and sixties, and it was just. The expectation was, is that whoever was working normally, the guy just didn't have anything else to worry about, and the wife just stayed back and did all the kids stuff, and that was just. Just the. That's just what it was. And so if you did need to, you know, so if you needed to go, if work late on your shift or go get drinks after work or whatever it was, the culture said, like, that's just fine. And then as that no longer was the case as we got into the seventies and eighties and nineties, and it was weird in that that was less and less true. But for some reason, so many organizations still saw it as, like, not their responsibility to deal with any of that stuff. And you as the individual person, you as the parent, whatever, your family situation, just had to figure it out. And that kind of kept ratcheting up. And, yeah, I think, you know, as with so many things, Covid just broke that open as it just. It got ratcheted up to a point where it was just completely unsustainable. You know, I was. What was that? In March of 2020, my daughter was five, and, you know, or she was actually, she was four at the start, so she was in preschool. And so trying to figure out, you know, Zoom preschool was, like, a joke.

Kortney00:06:04 - 00:06:08

And trying to do that preschool on Zoom?

Matt00:06:08 - 00:06:09

Yes.

Kortney00:06:09 - 00:06:11

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, that sounds crazy.

Matt00:06:11 - 00:07:06

It's crazy. And trying to. We. I mean, we ended up quitting after a couple weeks is like, it's more of a challenge to try to, like, monitor this than to just, like, monitor our child. And. But then even going into kindergarten, kindergarten, they still did that doing, you know, I was in. We're in California, and so just, like, everything was shut down forever. Like, it was like, you know, it took them, like, two and a half years to reopen the schools. And so it was just so impossible to try to be a, like, full time, at home parent and yet also be at a place where it's like, no, you should be working 16 hours a day because the whole world's burning down and, oh, my gosh, what are we going to do? That everybody just kind of said, I quit, you know, and so now to bring it, you know, back to today. So I think that's where it just kind of opened it up to, like, oh, we need to think about these things and talk about these things.

Kortney00:07:06 - 00:08:10

Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, we had childcare and school all shutting down, and then, like, it never really recovered. So childcare is still, like, a crisis. We're still in a situation there for a lot of people. And, you know, the struggle was just kind of brought to the surface where people had to pay attention. Even if you didn't have kids, you were seeing everyone else's kids jumping on their Zoom call or whatever because they're trying to work in parent at the same time. And I think everyone kind of saw it all of a sudden. Yeah, it had been a problem for decades. Like you said, women started entering the workforce. It became more common. Seventies, eighties, nineties, we don't have that just single income household anymore. But the workplace didn't catch up, and it was just the parents problem to go home, figure it out. I say in a lot of my presentations or talks to hr people about changing the culture and not allowing that older generation to be like, well, back in my day, I missed every one of her soccer games because I was at work till 09:00. It's like, well, good for you.

Matt00:08:10 - 00:08:11

Great.

Kortney00:08:11 - 00:08:28

What's your relationship like with that child now? You know, because you missed out on half their, you know, childhood, and we have parents that don't want to do that now. We want to do better, and we want to be more present parents and good employees, and we should be able to do both.

Matt00:08:29 - 00:08:57

Yes, that's the hope. And I think, too, the other thing that, you know, the more recent times have brought to light, I think at least with the, you know, with the millennial generation and going on, is it's like the promise used to be that, like, maybe it was worth making those sacrifices because at the end of the day, everything would be provided for. And now it feels like we're in a world where even if you make those sacrifices, it doesn't necessarily mean everything's going to be provided for. So it's just not worth making those sacrifices.

Kortney00:08:58 - 00:09:21

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I think real people are starting to realize that they're more replaceable at work than we like to, like to think that we are, you know, with layoffs and whatever, we realize that, you know, life is not all about work and that we need to be committed to things outside of just our workplace and, you know, be more present in other areas, too.

Matt00:09:21 - 00:09:22

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Kortney00:09:22 - 00:09:47

So for the managers who are maybe new to their role or perhaps don't have kids of their own, or their kids are old and grown and they haven't thought about it in a while, I mean, how can they, you know, kind of be a better, more supportive leader for those young parents or the people who are kind of in the trenches of childcare and newborns and sleep deprivation and all of that?

Matt00:09:47 - 00:12:50

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest thing, kind of how we started is getting to know folks as people and not as coworkers. And that can be. I understand that can be somewhat controversial sometimes because, you know, not everybody wants to bring their whole selves to work. They like to have that, that little bit of separation. And so it's not like you need to force every employee to tell you their deepest, darkest secrets, but engaging with them on a level that they're prepared for, of just kind of asking them basic questions of, you know, what are you doing? What are you doing this weekend? Like, what? How are things going? You know, what books are you into? What? Understanding the things that they care about in their lives. Because chances are there are many things in their lives that they care about a lot more than work. I remember I had an employee on one team who she was really into Larping, like live action role play. And she would go out to on the weekends and do the whole big. They take over a field and do a whole big role playing thing. When she'd talk about it, she would just open up and be like so excited and energized. And when you can develop a relationship with somebody that taps in to those things they care about, like this happened to me just the other day at a networking dinner where people got me talking about. About Sci-fi and Sci-fi books. And I'm just like, I just open up and I'm just like so impassioned and excited about it. If you can tap into that with your workers, it's really. It's really great. So I think that's the first thing is connecting with people kind of on that level, of what are the things that they care about? And then I'll borrow another element that I'm going to mess it up. But it's an idea from Kim Scott's book Radical Candor. I'm pretty sure that's where it comes from. Where she kind of separates employees into a couple different types of employees where even high performing employees, like, like there's the diff and I forget the names, but it's basically like people who are like on the superstar trajectory of like, this is my number one focus versus people who are doing good work, but their career is not their focus at that point in time. And I think understanding that that's normal and okay, that seasons to life are normal and okay, and that you can have excellent and amazing workers who are just trying to do their 8 hours because this is a time in their life where they are trying to be a parent and you know, realizing that understanding what are the needs of the role and how is it. How can that person best fit into those needs of their role and that it doesn't only need to be. I am 100% totally focused here. I think not classifying, but just, like, thinking about workers in kind of those different. What's. What phase of their life are they. Are they in? Is. Can also be helpful.

Kortney00:12:50 - 00:13:08

Yeah. Yeah. And realizing that that phase may not necessarily last forever and they're going to go through phases, I'm assuming, kind of very committed to work, and then maybe something else comes up and then very committed to work, and then something else comes up and, you know, it may change over the course of their career.

Matt00:13:08 - 00:14:59

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. And having. And that's where I think that's the most important thing about why it's important to connect with people on, like, what's most important to them is because it serves as that foundation for a deep relationship of trust where you can have these honest conversations, because I'm sure you. Maybe I may be, like, many listeners probably go through times where they're kind of trying to hide the fact that there's something going on. You know, they have somebody in their family that's sick, and they need to really focus on that. It's maybe only going to be for a couple weeks or a couple months, but they really need to focus on that, and they're bending over backwards trying to hide that fact. And, like. And then. And then they're not fully committed or seeming fully committed at work. So you, as the boss, are, like, frustrated with them and all these things, and. And it just creates all this tension when it. When it doesn't need to be there. They were a great worker. They're still a great worker. They will be a great worker. The only challenge is you can't have these open conversations about what's going on. So, yes. Does it. Does it always need to come back to, what are the requirements for the role? And can a person fulfill those requirements for the role? I mean, unfortunately, yes, that is what happens. And there are situations that can come up in people's lives where, like, this isn't gonna work out anymore. And, you know, I mean, that. I mean, I used to work at SpaceX. Like, SpaceX just is a place where, like, the expectation is crazy high and, like, if you're trying to not focus, if you really have lots of other stuff going on and you don't want to push a lot into work, I don't know if that's the right place for you to work and that. And that's okay. But there's a lot of gray area there. There's a lot of wiggle room where people can be very committed get a lot of great stuff done and not have to feel this guilt or shame because there's something going on in their life.

Kortney00:14:59 - 00:15:43

Yeah, absolutely. Kind of. I mean, you could have this, like, season, like a push season at work, you know, but then you might also sometimes have this push season at home where you really need to. To focus on somebody or something that's going on, and that might make you seem like a lesser employee, quote unquote lesser for the time being. And, you know, if the manager doesn't know what's going on, I can see where they would feel like it's a productivity issue or something is happening that's frustrating and they don't understand why all of a sudden you're not performing the same as you were or dragging your feet, coming in the door or whatever. But if you're willing to have that kind of back and forth and relationship and I and understand what's going on in people's lives, that would certainly help you try to get them through it.

Matt00:15:44 - 00:15:46

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Kortney00:15:46 - 00:16:01

Yeah. Maybe see kind of what you could take off their plate for a few weeks or shift some responsibilities around or if there's some sort of leave available to them or whatever, rather than them feeling ashamed of having a life.

Matt00:16:02 - 00:16:54

Yeah. And that's the number one thing. Why I think it's tricky for especially younger managers is because you just haven't seen a lot of life yet. Potentially. Maybe. Maybe you have. Plenty of young people have seen a lot of life. But I remember who was. Was it Sheryl? I think it was Sheryl Sandberg that wrote lean in and did the whole thing. And I think it was a Sheryl Sandberg story where she was always against, like, having special parking for pregnant women and just, like, didn't want to, thought that was kind of a weird thing to try to do. And then she got pregnant and was like, oh, my gosh, like, this is really hard. I wish I had a closer parking spot. You know, there's some things that until you go through them, it's hard to have empathy. And so it's good to, you know, just so you can build those connections to help. Help get the empathy without necessarily going through it yourself.

Kortney00:16:54 - 00:17:45

Yeah, yeah. That's definitely one of those things that, I mean, I was, when I was pregnant, I was teaching, and I was the only one on the bottom floor. My classroom was the only one on the bottom floor. So I had to go up and down the stairs, like, 1015 times a day. And, you know, before I got pregnant, I'm like, skip it up the stairs, and it was no problem at all. My first pregnancy actually wasn't bad either. But then my second pregnancy, I was like, okay, guys, I'm gonna need a key to that elevator. This isn't happening anymore. Somebody, this isn't working. Because there was an elevator, but, you know, they had to keep it locked, so the students were just playing with it. You had to have an access key, and then it took weeks and, like, asking multiple times to get that. Guys, I've got major, like, joint issues going on here. My hips feel like they're falling off of me. I need the elevator key. And I don't know, like, why it took so long to get that, you know? And maybe it was somebody just didn't really understand the need.

Matt00:17:45 - 00:17:57

I don't know very well. I mean, that, that very well probably has a big part to do with it of just like, some bit there's someone, or many people in the chain were just like, eh, it's not the biggest.

Kortney00:17:57 - 00:18:19

She doesn't really need it. She's just pregnant. Like, and I would have thought the same thing even in my first pregnancy. Wow, that's no big deal. But, yeah, you gotta kinda get to know people and their needs, and I guess in some cases, kind of take it at face value that what they're saying really is a need or an issue or a problem for them because you may not quite understand it. Cause you've never been through it.

Matt00:18:19 - 00:20:11

Yeah, yeah, I think, and that's, it's a really tough challenge, especially in this day and age. I think of, you know, we have the whole complaints about, you know, special snowflakes or, you know, culture of people being soft or, oh, those millennials or those Gen Zerse, whoever. And so it is a difficult balance because I don't think you can't accommodate everything. But, you know, I used to work at a company that looking at this from the, like, the customer point of view, where they had it was something like, you know, customer obsession. As long as we can make a profit or, you know, something like that where. And it wasn't, it wasn't that, because that sounds really awful, but it was like, we are customer obsessed. We do want to do everything we can to make sure they're having a great experience, make sure they're, they're getting what they want. However, we still need to operate a company, and we, and so, you know, any policy that anything that you're doing for a customer, ask yourself, like, if we did this for all customers, would we make any money? Would it be practical. Would we be able to do this at scale? And so that was kind of the way, like, yes, we want to do everything we can for our customers, but with that constraint of, we still need to operate a business. And that's where I think being very clear about the requirements of a role can really help in that. You want to have total empathy. You want to do what you can for employees, for every employee on our team, for every member of your team. But there's still certain requirements for the role, and, like that. That's. And I think that's how you can find that balance of. Is this feasible? If we did it for everybody, is it feasible to give every employee keys to the elevator? Probably not. But is it feasible to give, like, every pregnant employee keys to the elevator and make that really easy? Probably, yeah.

Kortney00:20:12 - 00:20:34

Yeah. As long as it's not, like, going to break the bank. I feel like sometimes people almost turn down accommodations or requests or things like that out of bullheadedness or something. I don't know. Like, no, you don't need that. If it's something really easy and simple like that, is it really gonna be a big deal to offer it? No, usually not.

Matt00:20:34 - 00:20:36

I agree with that. Yeah.

Kortney00:20:36 - 00:20:59

Yeah. And then I think also, you know, we were talking about the clear role expectations at the company you used to work at was super fast paced, and maybe it wasn't a great spot for somebody who's not 100%, like, focused on career. I think as the employee, the parent or caregiver or whoever, it's also kind of important to realize that, like, maybe it's okay to move on sometimes.

Matt00:20:59 - 00:21:00

Yes.

Kortney00:21:00 - 00:21:21

You know, you don't necessarily have to stay at the same company for your entire career, and if it's not a good fit anymore, maybe it's okay to start looking elsewhere. You know, that was. I mean, when I had both my kids, which my son was born two weeks before COVID rocked the nation. So that was just bad timing too. But, I mean, I was shameless.

Matt00:21:21 - 00:21:22

You should have scheduled that better.

Kortney00:21:22 - 00:21:43

Yeah, it was really bad timing. Like, 100% focused on my career. I loved teaching. It was great fun. I was, frankly, pretty good at it for almost a decade, and then I had kids, and then it was like, ugh, this doesn't really work anymore. I need to find something better for myself. So, you know, it's okay to pivot, too.

Matt00:21:44 - 00:23:02

That's really important for employees to think about, for people to think about that and do some of that introspection, because it can lead you in a bad place. To a bad place if you don't. I mean, when I. When I first started. So my daughter was born four months before I started working at SpaceX. And SpaceX, on paper, is this place that, you know, as you can see, like, is the perfect place for me to work. Right. Like, it's like everything that I want to do, I am could. I couldn't be more passionate about the mission, but it didn't fully, especially long term, match my lifestyle that I wanted. And early on, that made me mad. I was just like, but this is so great. Like, I was really frustrated with this fact that, like, it's, you know, you say it seems like the only way to get ahead is if you work, if you have, you know, family and you have work 75 hours a week. By the way, none of that is true. You know, if you really pull back the onion, and there's plenty of people with families who find their semblance of balance, who move forward, but at the end of the day, not everybody needs to be able to work everywhere, and there are going to be places that want a certain lifestyle and that don't match whatever your lifestyle is, and that's fine. And so doing a little bit of that introspection is really important.

Kortney00:23:02 - 00:23:14

Yeah. And then as the manager, of course, not trying to push people out or run them off, but not also getting, like, hurt if someone leaves because it's not a good fit, you know, like, yeah, that's okay.

Matt00:23:15 - 00:24:10

Exactly. And that's where that early conversations happen, you know, I mean, I think Gary Vaynerchuk, who's a big social media influencer, he talks a lot about how I think it's Gary Vee, and then I think. I think Mister Beast talks about this, too, of, you know, when they realize, make, you know, so they're having these open conversations, and when they're trying to talk to somebody, trying to change their performance or do whatever it is, if they realize it's not a fit of. It's not like, kicking to the curb. It's. It's much more one. In an ideal place, you have a decent severance, but then also, like, what can I do to help you land in a better place? Like, how. Who can I network with? Who can I call? What companies are you interested in? How can I help you find a place that's more of a match for your situation, not treating it like, because you're not like me. You're wrong. It's just like, no, you're not like me. Like, and that's fine.

Kortney00:24:10 - 00:24:15

That's okay. Yeah. That's what makes our world interesting, right? It would be pretty boring if we were all exactly the same.

Matt00:24:16 - 00:24:45

Yes. Yes. That's one of the things that I love about Netflix, because, you know, granted, they have, you know, also a pretty crazy culture, but I don't know if they still do this. But at least sounded like early on, they had a four month severance was standard for everyone. And so then it. That's what allowed. That's what gave managers the freedom to easily let people go because they didn't feel like they were dropping people on the curb with two weeks pay. You know, they, you know, give them four months to go figure out a better situation.

Kortney00:24:46 - 00:24:48

Yeah, that's cool. I had. I didn't know that.

Matt00:24:48 - 00:24:48

Yeah.

Kortney00:24:48 - 00:25:00

Well, Matt, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for sharing with us today and coming on. If people want to learn more about you, your company, and get into your world, where can they find you?

Matt00:25:00 - 00:25:33

Yeah, I'm very active on LinkedIn, so definitely look me up on LinkedIn. Matthew Jerson, there's. There's not a whole lot of us out there. And then better everydaystudios.com is the company website. If you go to bettereverydaystudios.com forward slash accelerator. Every two weeks, we do these little 30 minutes, single leadership skill accelerator sessions where we just kind of do one little breakout. So it's just a quick and easy way for people to come in, learn something in 30 minutes, get out. It's very low, low lift. So recommend anybody that wants to come check it out.

Kortney00:25:33 - 00:25:38

Absolutely. That's awesome. And I'll make sure we have all those links down in the show notes, too.

Matt00:25:38 - 00:25:43

Awesome. Thank you so much. This has been fun. I rarely get to talk about this, and I think a lot about it, so this is great.

Kortney00:25:44 - 00:25:46

Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing.

Matt00:25:46 - 00:25:47

Absolutely.

Kortney00:25:50 - 00:26:13