In this episode, Emily Stone, a certified breastfeeding counselor and founder of Empowered Breastfeeding Bootcamp talks with Kortney about the logistics of breastfeeding and pumping.
We dive into the challenges working moms face when returning to work, especially in a country like the United States where paid maternity leave is not the norm. Emily shares invaluable advice on how moms can prepare for breastfeeding after returning to work, including the importance of establishing a strong milk supply through direct nursing first. She also shares the critical role employers play in supporting lactation, from creating a comfortable pumping environment to being flexible and understanding.
Connect with today's guest:
As a mother of three, Emily has experienced firsthand the challenges of birthing and breastfeeding, each time feeling like an unguided DIY project.
Recognizing the limitations of traditional, medicalized prenatal support, she embraced a holistic approach that values the mind-body-spirit connection in nurturing new life.
Emily created Empowered Breastfeeding Bootcamp™, a comprehensive, holistic, and on-demand breastfeeding course and community. She also hosts local support groups and is a certified Lactation Counselor.
Note - This transcript is automatically generated and has not been checked for errors.
Welcome to the Nextgen work Culture podcast, where leaders learn to support working parents. Because being a family friendly business isn't just a nice to have anymore. It's essential for businesses that want to stay competitive, and it is critical for the next generation and those who are raising them. I'm your host, Kortney Ross, and I am so glad that you're here. Welcome back to the next gen work culture. Today I'm here with Emily Stone from empowered bumps and boobs. Welcome, Emily.
Hi, Kortney. Thank you for having me.
But before we get started, can you tell our listeners who you are and what you do?
Sure. So, I'm Emily Stone. I am a certified breastfeeding counselor, and I have an online course in community called empowered breastfeeding bootcamp. And it is a really comprehensive course on all things related to breastfeeding, even things you didn't know were related to breastfeeding, like nutrition and your relationships and pumping and everything in between. And so I have the online community, and then I also host in person mom support groups where I'm at, which is in southeastern Michigan. And then my day job is creating online courses for other clients and other companies.
Yeah, that's great. And I love how holistic your course is. I've kind of seen the back end of it, and it's very unique. I think that it's not just about breastfeeding, because there's lots of breastfeeding courses out there, of course, but yours really talks about so much more of, like, the whole person and not just the lactation portion of it, because there's so much more that goes into it.
Yes. And I think if you want just a medicalized curriculum approach, like, you just need to know how to latch. Like, there are other resources for that. I wanted to create something that was different and on demand because also, I don't think learning everything in one three hour session is going to stick with you when you need it. I think having it, like, easily accessible on your phone when you have questions or want to show your partner is a lot more realistic in today's world of how we really access information just in time.
Yeah, absolutely. And especially with mom brain, you know, you may go to that training at the hospital, like, two months before the baby's even actually born. And how much of that are you going to really remember and retain and be able to put into practice after the baby is born? Like, probably not very much. And you don't know what you don't know until you're in the thick of it. Like, you don't know which latch is going to work for you? So maybe you go and you're like, oh, yeah, that, like, football hold is the one I'm going to want to do. And then it doesn't work at all for your baby and you need something different. So just being able to go and, like, find that video of what were all those latch techniques, she said, like, be able to try out different ones in the moment is super helpful.
Yep.
Yeah. So let's talk about breastfeeding and returning to work because that can be challenging. Of course, we're in the United States where there is no paid maternity leave in most states or in a lot of states. So moms are going back to work really, really soon. And sometimes that can really hinder our breastfeeding journey, unfortunately. So what do you kind of need to think about when you're returning to work? You know, when you're getting ready to go back to work? What is everything that mom kind of needs to consider and know before she returns?
Sure. Well, and I will back up a step and just say that that is one of the, probably one of the top things that new moms are stressed about. Baby is like two days old and they are already asking me like, when should I start pumping so that I have a stash for when I return to work? And I'm like, oh, my goodness. We have to slow down here because in preparation for if you are planning to be separated from baby and return to work after however many weeks, those first few weeks are when you are establishing a strong milk supply. That's a prerequisite for you being able to keep nursing and pumping when you return to work. So those first few weeks are so precious. And I honestly generally discourage people from pumping unless it becomes needed for a specific reason. You really want to get into the rhythm of just you and baby learning baby's hunger cues and feeding on demand, which is then teaching your body how much milk to produce.
It's like this supply and demand, beautiful relationship. So if your body can be getting into this rhythm of understanding how much the baby needs, then you could introduce maybe one pumping session and you could slowly build up. I hate to use the term stash because in the end you just need enough for baby on Wednesday when it's Wednesday and you'll be pumping for what they'll need on Thursday. Like, that's the bare minimum and it's lovely to have a bit of a cushion. Everybody likes an emergency supply of some sort, but to put the pressure on yourself to have a whole freezer full of extra milk is just not realistic for most people. And then they start to think my supply is too low. You know, a lot of self doubt creeps in. So to answer your question about when you are going back to work, you do kind of want to have, like, one to two days that you've maybe slowly been building up.
And then at work, the most peaceful, private environment possible would be ideal, because when our bodies are under stress, we release hormones that actually block the exact hormones we need to let down the milk. So the most important thing is, will there be a space at your workplace where you can feel comfortable enough to take a deep breath to calm your nervous system? Some people like to look at a photo of their baby on their phone. It sort of, like, tricks the brain and induces those oxytocin hormones. And we think, we're with baby, and then we get the milk let down. So is there a space that's private enough for you to have that calm environment? And then do you have a refrigerated space to store the milk after you pump? And a lot of moms like to store their pump parts in the fridge. That's an okay way to sort of keep bacteria at bay throughout the day and not have to wash every time they're pumping. So working with your employer to find that type of space and that type of refrigeration setup are probably the two most important things to think about logistically. And then in your schedule, where are you going to be able to fit in enough pumping sessions to sort of mimic, if you were home with baby, how often you would probably be nursing, just to keep giving your body the same signals to make the same amount of milk.
Yeah. So I think it's important to probably have this conversation with your workspace or with your manager before you go on maternity leave. Hopefully, they're going to be preparing that space for you, if it doesn't already exist before the day that you come back to work. It's not something you want to come in on Monday morning and say, hey, where am I going to pump? They probably need to know ahead of time that that's your intention, since you're going to need that space so that they could be sure that it exists.
Yes, and I think so. We're sort of describing the ideal situation. And in reality, what I hear from a lot of moms is they end up pumping in their car or they are in, like, a makeshift space that does not feel private, that isn't private, like someone has walked in before, that they're made to feel bad. Like they are cheating the system. Almost like they're taking extra smoke breaks or something.
Yeah.
When it's like a medically indicated thing that they need to do for them and their baby, almost feeling like they're getting punished because they have to take time out to do this. Just totally unsupported and not understood. And to be fair, if you've never been in this situation, you do not understand all of, like, the new wants and what's required to be successful. So. But that is, you know, I love to describe the ideal situation, and I do hear from some moms that they have a super supportive manager company, and especially if they're not the first mom to go through it. Usually where the trouble happens is you are the first employee to pump at work at this place, and they are, like, scrambling to figure out a solution. When it's well established and other women have, like, gone through this process before, then you generally have a smoother time.
Yeah. When you're that first mom, it can always be tough. I did hear lately somebody was sharing a story where they were the first mom and their boss basically, like, gave them a credit card and said, go get what you need to set up the lactation space that you're going to want. And, like, how amazing is that, right? To be able to design the space for yourself, but then for moms after you, too. So they gave her the space to be able to get the comfortable chair and everything that she was going to want to that space, which I think was just absolutely awesome, but that is definitely not the norm. A lot of times you're just kind of being shoved in a closet.
Yes. And a lot of times you lose that employee. So I know moms who have left. This was a deal breaker and good for them for, like, standing up for themselves, because I also know moms who just stopped pumping and gave in, and we're so sad about it. So I've seen it go many different ways, but having an actual lactating mom design the space for lactating moms at your office sounds like maybe like the pinnacle of what we should be doing.
Right? I know. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it really is a retention issue, actually. I just saw in some research earlier this week that it could really increase retention rates and reduce absenteeisms as well. So even. It was the Los Angeles department of Water and Power, actually, even though 80% of their employees were male, when they implemented some sort of lactation support program where everybody could take advantage of that, they noticed that 83% of employees had a more positive, like, perception of the company, and 67% intended to stay there long term.
So, like, that's huge. Even though a lot of their employees were male, having a lactation support program actually, like, made a huge difference for them, which I thought was really interesting statistics.
Yeah, well, those males have wives, sisters, you know, friends. So hopefully it just created this culture of, like, we care about people, which everybody wants to work. We're. They feel cared about. That is really encouraging.
Yeah. And even the. The male employees were able to take advantage of that lactation support so that they could, you know, support their partners, which I know is also a part of your course, is like, how can your partner support you? Because it shouldn't be all on mom. There's lots of things that the partner can do to help.
Yeah. The extent. Whatever a partner can do to take care of the mom or the logistics that just go with washing the bottles and creating the safe space for mom to nurse in or pump in. Yeah. That just makes it so much easier for mom to focus on the thing that only she can do.
Yeah, absolutely. So let's go back to the space. If an employer is setting up their space for the first time. You know, we've just now. Well, maybe they've just learned about the pump act and realized it's a requirement that they have to have a lactation space now. Maybe it's the first time they've had a lactating mom since that all came out and they've got the room. What should they put in the room? What should it look like? What do they need?
Yeah, so ideally, I would almost envision, like, a yoga studio. Like, it's dim ish lighting and, like, comfortable furniture, lots of outlets. And if you could have a refrigerated space directly, like, right in that same room, that would be ideal. So you don't have to, like, transport it down to the kitchen, I guess. Yeah. If the sky's the limit, then the refrigerator would be right there, a lock, and maybe just some sort of communication, like, in use or, like, I'll be done at approximately this time. Or just make it, like, super transparent when someone's in there, when someone's not a really good way to book the space is important. And, yeah, it's honestly not that difficult.
I would say less is more, you know, not a bunch of extra, like, computer monitors that people might come in and, like, grab at random moments. Like that would be.
It shouldn't be in the supply room where they're going to have to come to restock the copier in the middle of her pumping or, you know, something like that. Yeah.
We all recognize when we walk into a space and our shoulders relax and we exhale or we walk into a space and our shoulders go towards our ears and we, like, breathe shallowly, we can all feel that. So if you walk into this space and your shoulders can relax, that would be, like, the gold standard of where moms should be pumping.
Absolutely. Yeah. And like you said, it does. It's not super complicated, like a comfy chair, a refrigerator. It could even be just like a mini fridge, a table or something for laying out pump parts and milk and not spilling your milk. Because whoever said don't care for spilled milk obviously never pumped breast milk. So having plenty of space to lay stuff out and then just an inviting atmosphere.
Yep.
Yeah. Paper towels. That's super helpful. And a sink is nice, too, if that's an option, if you can have it somehow where there's running water. But that's a lot trickier. You don't usually have a sink in the office, you know? Yeah. Like, going to the bathroom and it can't be a bathroom.
Oh, my gosh. Like, do we have to say that still? But we do.
I think people.
I think there still is a misconception. Like, can't you just go in the bathroom? I also. So there is a trend now. More and more moms are purchasing wearable pumps, which I think is great. It can give you some more freedom and, like, hands free time. But I don't want us to then start saying, like, well, then can't they just, like, be pumping while they're working? Like, do they still need a break? Like, let's slow down. It's a nice option. I think a lot of moms have both.
They still have, like, their traditional double electricity. A lot of people find that still better suction. And if you're pumping, like, all day or exclusively pumping, like, you still want that. And then the wearables, like, a nice to have, and it's good for searching in certain situations. But no, moms still need designated time and space to pump, even if they happen to own a wearable pump. That's, like, beside the point.
Yeah, absolutely. The wearable pump was how I, like, made it through breastfeeding with my second kid, but with my first child, I mean, that wasn't an option because I used insurance to purchase my pump, and my primary pump needed to be that double electric pump because that's what gets the most milk out. Right. And I didn't have the money to buy another pump, because those wearable pumps, if you're buying them out of pocket or like, $800, $1,000 or more, I mean, they're expensive. So mom definitely doesn't need to get that as her primary pump because it may not pump enough. And then she could run into issues with milk supply or mastitis or all of that. So you have to keep in mind, even if she does have that, it doesn't need to be what she's using all the time for most women.
Yes, yes. And I don't know if this is the right conversation, but I just always have to give a shout out to flange size. So, for someone who's pumping a lot, if you have the wrong flange size, it can decrease how much milk you're putting out and really sort of make or break your pumping experience. And then even with these wearables, you can buy, like, an insert that changes the. The shape and size of the opening. So just a shout out for flange size. And if you're unsure, a lactation consultant can provide you, like, a professional fitting, or there's tools online to measure and figure it out yourself, because a lot of people find the default sizes that come with their pump are not the size they need.
Yeah, and that's interesting. I didn't know that you could get inserts for the wearable pumps, too. That's really cool. But I think, you know, even for the employer, that's something that's kind of good to point out, because they may not realize how much really goes into pumping. It's not like you just buy the pump, hook yourself up, and voila, you're done. Like, there's so much more intricacies that people have to consider.
It's, like, emotional, too, because there's this objective output of ounces, and honestly, moms tend to measure their self worth in these ounces. Like it. I pumped 6oz yesterday, and today it's only two. What's wrong with me? What did I do? Am I losing my supply? Like, so much goes on with how much of that liquid gold is coming out. So, yeah, it's not transactional. It might appear like that from the outside, but it's very mental, emotional. Like we said, your emotions and your state of being can impact how much you're producing and how it's going for you. So, yeah, it's.
It's a lot.
Yeah, it really is. And it can be super taxing. It's like having a full time job in and of itself, just trying to breastfeed a baby. I mean, the number of hours that go into pumping and actually breastfeeding is insane. It's a lot.
And the number of calories you're burning, like the energy you're using is like you're weightlifting every Day.
Yes, literally. It's so much. So we talked about this space a little bit. What about the schedule? Can you talk about how maybe that might change or evolve over time?
Sure. So when you're first going right back to work, it would be important to mimic the schedule you've been on with baby as closely as possible. And as the mom, you will feel it, like, you know, you're getting really full, you're uncomfortable. You're probably not even able to focus on work anymore because all you can feel is how full you are. So. And the way nursing generally works, it's more frequent, smaller feedings. So no, it's not the same to pump once for an hour versus three spread out 20 minutes sessions, that's very different. Once for an hour.
If that's all you did all Day, especially in the beginning, that would probably be really bad for your supply, really bad for your health and things would not go well. So the spacing and then, yeah, about 20 minutes. But then there's like the getting to the room, the washing of the parts after the cleaning of this, the heading back, it really, time wise, will eat into your work day. Like, there's no way around it.
Yeah.
And I think you and I are very aligned on, if you want something done, give it to a busy mom. Give it to a busy pumping mom. Like, she will get her work done. Just, it takes some trust and yeah, maybe there's a dip in productivity during these months that she's having to pump at work, but to retain that high quality employee for the long term, I promise, is worth it in the end. So just be realistic. Like, yeah, it's going to take time out of the day, probably a few times, like a few smaller chunks of time. And I promise mom is doing her best to like, nurse baby before she leaves her work nurse as soon as she gets back with her baby. At the end of the day, moms don't want to pump more than they have to at work.
They are trying to get away with like the minimum number. No one's taking extra pump breaks for fun, I promise. And it does evolve. So then when baby grows, they end up starting to take in a little bit of solid food. They need a little bit less milk. But honestly, through that first year, it's very normal if breast milk is still the primary nutrition. You know, mom's going to keep having to pump at work. Sometimes there is the pulling back.
Maybe now she only pumps twice a day instead of three times, or however that might work, it will evolve as the baby grows.
Yeah. So especially if she's coming back to work really soon after having baby, like just a few weeks or couple of months old, she's gonna have to pump pretty frequently. But by the time that baby's a year old, she might only have to pump once at work, you know, it changes. And so you just really have to work with the employee to figure out what exactly does she need, what is working with her, and it may even change from like day to day depending on what's going on with breastfeeding. I know I had mastitis a lot, which is, you know, like clogs and lumps. And when you've got that, you've got to really pump through it or breastfeed through it and get rid of the clogs. So that meant that sometimes when I was coming back to work after that, I had to pump an extra time. Or if I had been using my wearable pump for one session during the day, I couldn't do that.
You know, I had to go back to using just the traditional one. So it changed things just from, you know, the day before? Possibly, yeah, that's a good point.
But you're really just highlighting the fact that we just have to trust mom to know her body and what she needs. And this is, it is a really special circumstance. Whatever employee rules or expectations we have normally, this is a really special circumstance. That's all I can say. It's a limited time period and we are helping sustain and maintain human life. Like, ideally women would get paid for twelve months to stay home with their baby and nurse on demand, and it just wouldn't even, this wouldn't even be a conversation or it'd be an optional conversation. But in place of that, this is the best thing we can do is support them in their nursing journey, their pumping journey when they are at work.
Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, you have to have babies if you want workers in the future. So we have to sustain the human race somehow. And the best way evolve could do that is by breastfeeding. Of course, formula is an option and there's nothing wrong with it. I used it with my oldest child. But if you can breastfeed, that is the best option for mom and baby.
And we know from a public health perspective that nursing is giving the baby antibodies and reducing the number of sick days, potentially that mom even has to take off work because baby's sick. When she's able to make those antibodies and help clear viruses faster, just from a macro level, it's just better for everyone.
Yeah. Yeah. That same study I was talking about earlier found that the moms who were breastfeeding missed work less often. It was actually like twice as frequent the Formula fed babies. Moms were missing just like one day absences to have to take care of a sick child. So it was a big difference between the Formula fed babies and the breast fed babies, how often mom was having to miss work.
Well, and the common perception is that breastfeeding is going to take more time from mom, and it does. But then when we get into, like, sleeping, actually exclusively breastfeeding moms can get more sleep, which seems counterintuitive, but it just, in practice, the baby will like, go back to sleep faster. There's stuff in your nighttime milk that like, sedates them and keeps them sleeping and then with the, you know, passing antibodies and reducing number of sick days, like, it seems counterintuitive, but we do have the data to show that it can actually just make your life a little easier in that super hard first year.
Yeah. And I don't know if there's any studies to show whether mom's productivity goes down at work or not, but I would argue to say it probably doesn't because once you're a mom, you learn to be super productive in the amount of time that you have. So if she knows she's going to have to take an hour out of her workday to go and pump, she's probably going to work twice as hard in the hours that she is working to make sure she meets all of her deliverables or gets everything done that she has to get done at work.
Yeah, that's been my experience.
She doesn't want to feel like she's slacking or something. And sometimes we almost feel like we have to prove ourselves. Especially, like you said, the culture is sometimes like, why are you getting extra breaks? Or, you know, why do you get this special privilege of going to pump? And first of all, don't let that culture, like, be a thing. Smush it out and don't let that happen. But I almost guarantee that mom will not be less productive just because she's taking this time, because she's going to try to prove herself and, you know, wants to still be a great employee, too.
Yeah, I think that's fair to say. That's been my experience, too.
Yeah, it's just. It's great for mom, it's great for baby, and it's good for business, too.
I guess something we didn't touch on yet is how positively it could impact someone to be able to have a hybrid schedule or work from home, because then you're in your own space more often and pumping is just going to go more smoothly. So even though baby's probably still in childcare or maybe you have a situation where then someone can just bring the baby to you and you can nurse directly, that's like, way more efficient than pumping the milk and then someone else feeding. So it just gives mom more options. And again, it might be a limited time period where this would just make, like, an outsized difference to the quality of her life to cut down on the time spent commuting and, like, pumping at work. So that's another. It's a bigger accommodation beyond, like, the beautiful space they could use at the workplace when it's possible. Some days at home or, you know, fully remote could really help mom be successful with her pumping and her nursing journey.
Yeah, and it's a temporary accommodation that may have long term, you know, payoff and benefits for the mom, the baby and the business. Because it improves retention.
Yes, exactly.
Well, Emily, was there anything else that you wanted to let our audience know before we end?
Not that I can think of. I just. I love that you're doing this work, and I think I touched on it, but I also. I do want to give grace to employers and managers who just have, they're learning all this for the first time and you don't know what you don't know. But if you just take this compassionate lens of being a brand new mom is really, really difficult. And yes, to perpetuate the human race, we need people to keep having babies. So whatever we can do to extend compassion and grace in this time of a mom's journey, it's going to go such a long way. I talked to moms 25, 10, 15 years later, the way their BREastfEEding JoUrney Unfolded still lives with them.
If it went really poorly and they're super disappointed and they felt like they had no control over it and it was like, taken away from them, maybe because, you know, pumping at work wasn't an OptioN, that stays with Them. And then the ones who were super supported, they will tell everybody else, like, come work for this company. I was super supported. It's great they take care of their moms there. So it's really important work and really important consideration on the part of employers.
Yeah. And there's lots of people out there that can help too. If the employer has no idea what's going on. There are consultants that will help. There are. You know, you could bring in lactation support for your employees. Sometimes that is offered through insurance or through people like you who are coaches and consultants. There are benefits providers like milk stork that'll do shipping for parents that have to travel for work.
There's lactation pods like through mamava where you could just buy the thing and put it in the office somewhere and you don't have to worry about setting up space. So there's lots of infrastructure and people who are willing to help you learn. You just have to be willing to go and do it and learn.
That's awesome.
Yeah. Well, thank you, Emily, so much for coming on today. If people want to find you, where can they find you at?
Definitely head to www.empoweredbumpsandboobs.com. if you are pregnant or a new mom, I would love to have you join my breastfeeding boot camp. You can get one on one support from me, access to all the resources we talked about, and definitely don't do this alone. There's no reason to other moms going through what you're going through and we'd love to support you in our community.
Thank you again, Emily.
Thanks so much.
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